“Do you rate Jones above Hopkins for what they were at their respective apexes or do you flip them for the overall scope of their careers?”
I asked this question for my Monday edition of 15 Rounds (http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxing-news/the-best-of-times-the-worst-of-times), where I talked about the juxtaposition of the respective careers of Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones in the wake of their fights last weekend, which could not have been any more different in magnitude and result.
I got plenty of feedback, first on Twitter (which is great for immediate and quick responses) and then some really well-thought out arguments via email in the following days. Here are some that stood out (with my thoughts)…
Steve,
I must admit that this is a very fascinating question. First off, I have been a Roy Jones Jr. fan since the 1988 Olympics (where he was robbed of the Gold). At the respective best of both fighters, it?s my opinion that Roy Jones Jr. stands above Bernard Hopkins. His mastery of James Toney, dominance of the Light Heavyweight division, and historic win over John Ruiz carries a good amount of weight in my eyes.
I was very frustrated that a mega fight in 2002 or 2003 did not happen between these two greats. This may sound bias in favor of RJJ, but I felt that BHop should have taken the 60/40 split if he was really looking for revenge. I thought 50/50 split was ridiculous for a guy who really made his public name off of his win over Felix Trinindad (at least in 2001); and he was facing the #1 Pound for Pound fighter on the planet. I really don?t think that BHop wanted the fight in 2002.
As a fan of RJJ, i will admit that he was stubborn to not just prove that 1993 was not a fluke and take the 50/50 split. I think like many elite athletes RJJ?s ego got in the way. I think that it?s ironic that he would not travel abroad to fight Dariusz Michalczewski during his prime; but now he is reduced to going abroad to make fights.
One thing that can?t be ignored is that RJJ?s KO losses to Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson really gave the RJJ critics ammunition to say “I told you he never fought anyone”. Also, it really changed the perception of him as a great fighter. I contended that even if RJJ would have beaten Antonio Tarver convincingly the first time around (which means the Glen Johnson fight would not have taken place), the casual boxing fan still would have said that RJJ handpicked his opponents. The bottom line is that no one outside of writers and hardcore fans followed Antonio Tarver. Don?t get me wrong, RJJ signed to take those fights and got KTFO?d, so he owns those on his resume. To sum up RJJ?s career: WHITE SIZZLING HOT AT ITS PEAK, and then it came crashing down hard to not taste past glory again.
Now Bernard Hopkins in perspective is a testament to hard work and a man dedicated to his craft. He was not HBO?s poster boy; and he literally had to work his way up to gain the appreciation of the casual boxing fan. His 20 MW title defenses is a tribute to his mental and physical toughness. I am amazed that this guy is able to fight at such a high level at age 46. One of the reasons that he has been able to adjust, is that his boxing was never based on speed and reflexes. As we all know, speed and reflexes are stripped away as we age (see RJJ). BHop has used his superior technical skill and ring savvy to keep “that car” moving forward. There are those who argue that BHop has carefully picked his opponents over the last few years. However, not many aging fighters have been able to duplicate what BHop?s has accomplished (handpicked opponents or not). Although his style may not be a thing of beauty, he has adapted to getting older and has made me believe that he can go on another few years. To sum up BHops career: LATE BLOOMER WITH STAYING POWER who proved the naysayers wrong.
If you want to base it on peak performances, many (including myself) will say that RJJ had the better career. If you want to base it on longevity, I have no issue with those who say that BHop had the better career.
Gerard (NJ)
Gerard, you sum up a lot of my feelings. And yeah, it?s really a shame that they had their rematch last year and not in the immediate aftermath of Hopkins? big victory over Felix Trinidad in September of 2001, in the weeks after 9/11 in New York City. To this day, that whole event (where my former Max colleague, Doug Fischer, basically paid our own way to see all three legs of Don King?s middleweight tournament that year when we began Maxboxing.com) and that particular fight is probably the most memorable promotion I have ever covered, much of which had nothing to do with boxing, based on what had just taken place weeks earlier just a few blocks from the Garden. In case you forgot (and no, that is no play on Jones? hip-hop cut) but the original date of Hopkins-Trinidad was September 15th, 2001. I think that time will be remembered by all Americans to the day we die.
OK, back to the subject at hand; to me, this whole debate and the way you summed it up is like the argument I?ve had over who the greatest center is/was in NBA history. To me, it?s Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Just look at the dominance (six MVPs, six titles) and basically being an All-Star caliber big man for two full decades. And at age 38, against a Boston Celtic front line of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, he won the NBA Finals MVP. At a position where most start to fade badly in their mid-30s, this guy was still among the best post-players at age 40. And if you want to talk about standing the test of time, Abdul-Jabbar played against Wilt Chamberlain (missing the great Bill Russell by one year) and by the time he called it quits in 1989, guys like Hakeem Olajuwon, Pat Ewing and Brad Daugherty were in their primes. To me, that?s a like a heavyweight facing Joe Louis and then also fighting Lennox Lewis before he called it quits. No center ever played- and excelled- against as many big men as ?The Cap.?
But I hear that argument that at their peak, ?The Diesel? was, as he likes to put it, ?Most Dominant Ever.? From 1998-2003, perhaps he should?ve been the MVP of the association every single year (although Tim Duncan would argue that point). Now, like Jones, it seems like Shaq?s hanging on, as he changes jerseys every season, while chasing that fifth Larry O?Brien Trophy. When he was at his best, Jones was an unstoppable force and perhaps the best blend of power and explosiveness the sport has ever seen at his position. At his peak, when you had O?Neal, you were automatically a title contender. It was that simple but over the long haul, he didn?t stay in the type of shape needed to excel late into his career as Kareem, who like Hopkins, could adjust to the loss of any physical capabilities with solid fundamentals and guile.
Me, I?ll take Abdul-Jabbar (who I believe is the greatest basketball player, alongside Michael Jordan) based on his consistency and longevity versus a deeper pool of talent at his position. Also, c?mon, the guy was ?Roger Murdock? in ?Airplane.? What other tie-breaker do you need?
Steve,
Enjoyed the article tremendously. I admit to being biased, but I pick Hopkins over Jones. I never really enjoyed RJJ?s fights. They were too one-sided; Roy was too reluctant to knock out some opponents; Roy was allowed to hand-pick his opponents. I believe RJJ is the most talented fighter of his era, but we will never know how good he really was – he never truly challenged himself. The same goes for PBF: a superlative talent, who has feasted on aging and clearly over-matched opponents.
On the other hand, Hopkins (for the pursuit) during the late 90?s and early 2000?s, was a joy to watch. The discerning fight fan is mystified by the intangibles he displayed in the ring. As a white collar fighter, I would watch Hopkins fights to pick up tips – anything to give me an edge in the ring. I wished I could develop 1/100th of Hopkins inside game (an aspect of the game that is sorely missing among young fighters). The only fighters I have enjoyed watching (recently) as much as the prime Hopkins is Andre Ward and JM Marquez.
They call boxing the sweet science for a reason: there is a methodology. Hopkins clearly has the methodology down to a science. I wonder how much further – how much more dominant RJJ would have been if he had applied himself to the science (not just the art) of boxing
oyeniyi3
That?s one of the key elements about this whole debate; there?s no doubting that Roy had more natural talent and superior athleticism. His amateur pedigree is well known and he was at least good enough to play minor league basketball (sometimes on the day of a fight). Jones was perhaps the quickest, fastest and most reflexive fighter I have ever seen. I still marvel at that left hook/right cross combo that dazed and floored Reggie Johnson. Seriously, that almost looked choreographed to a certain degree because it looked so artistic and graceful. And to throw that combination with such power and accuracy is something else. Folks, it?s hard to replicate that punch sequence while shadowboxing against the air- and this guy did it against a seasoned pro.
While Jones had many more God-given tools that allowed him to break all the rules, Hopkins (who was so raw that he actually lost his pro debut to a guy by the name of Clinton Mitchell as a light heavyweight and proceeded to take nearly a year-and-a-half off as he lost weight and regrouped), with the tutelage of Bouie Fischer (whose role in this career should not be understated) honed his skill set and refined his craft over time. And where Jones now pays for all his rudimentary flaws as his reflexes have dulled and evaporated, Hopkins is more than able to make for any physical slippage with all the little things he does.
To this day, I?m not sure Hopkins has ever even dribbled a Spalding.
Couple things?
Hopkins and Jones are both great, but Hopkins missed a ton of guys in his supposed ?prime??his middleweight defense resume is full of names no one?s heard of, while guys like James Toney, Lamar Kidfire Parks, Reggie Johnson, Mike McCallum, Gerald McClellan (who in my opinion, beats BOTH Jones and Hopkins sans the brain injury), Julian Jackson, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Steve Collins, Otis Grant, etc?were all around and were big names at the time for him to try and make fights with. He was just happy keeping his belt and fighting nobodies on USA Tuesday night fights. Roy Jones Jr. at least fought some decent guys on his way up and yeah, he did take advantage of HBO, but that?s their fault, not his.
As for your other statement, ??he?s not even that guy that can stick around against the likes of Joe Calzaghe?, hopefully that was not a jab at Calzaghe. Calzaghe was probably MORE past his own prime, at 36, than Hopkins was when he fought Calzaghe and that was literally the first time I?ve ever seen Hopkins pressured enough to where he wanted to get out of the fight. Calzaghe was an all time great in my opinion.
Also, if Hopkins is so great to this day, you can?t discount his losses to Calzaghe and Jermain Taylor as for him being past his prime. The saying ?your ass can?t sit on two separate stools? applies here.
Regards,
Paul Zbair
Paul, you make a fair point but here?s the truth about ?Reluctant Roy?: during his run as a super middleweight and light heavyweight, he also missed the likes of Nigel Benn, Steve Collins, Chris Eubank. It?s funny; for all this talk of who the ?real? champion is in respective divisions, people conveniently forget that it was Dariusz Michalczewski who was the linear champion at 175, not Jones. But I guess with certain entities, that?s only important when it fits their needs. I?ll say it right now; Jones, with his ability to exploit his HBO contract (which allowed him to face mis-mandatories and no-hopers like Derrick Harmon, Ricky Frazier and Glen Kelly, among others), became the greatest manager the sport has ever seen. Nobody ever got more credit for beating such handpicked fare like he did.
No, Hopkins may not have had the most challenging gauntlet during his long reign as a middleweight champion but overlooked are his victories over Glen Johnson (who was undefeated at the time) and that victory looks better and better as time goes on. Hopkins also legitimately unified the middleweight division and folks seem to forget he was a 3-1 ?dog coming into this fight with ?Tito? at Madison Square Garden. I find it interesting that in comparison, my personal favorite all-time pugilist is ?Marvelous? Marvin Hagler and if you look at his middleweight title run, you see guys like James ?Hard Rock? Green and Wilford Scypion. Yeah, he had some big-name wins versus the likes of Roberto Duran and Tommy Hearns but like some of Hopkins? bigger victories, those were versus fighters moving up from their best/natural weight. I find a lot of similarities in both of their middleweight title campaigns.
Yes, for the record, I thought Hopkins beat Jermain Taylor both times and while I thought his fight against Calzaghe was largely forgettable, it was a split decision loss.
Hi Steve,
First things first – congratulations on one of the best pieces I have ever read from you. You really raised your game for The Best of Times, The Worst of Times article. I really look forward to your articles because of the humor that you share in them, but with that article you gave us poignancy. It reminded me of the articles by Steve Farhood and Jeff Ryan that I read growing up. Your piece was so mature and so perfectly crafted, you totally deserve kudos for it.
Okay, as for the difference between Roy Jones Jr. and Bernard Hopkins in regards as to who had the more fulfilling career, I?m going to have to say that Hopkins by a wide margin. For me, I cannot overlook the fact that Jones refused to fight any of the outstanding Super Middleweights from the UK. I would have heavily favored Jones to decapitate Nigel Benn, Michael Watson, Chris Eubank, and Steve Collins, but he chose to ignore these viable challenges. While Jones was overlooking reasonable challenges, Hopkins was begging for fights to happen.
I?m Filipino and I?m impressed by Paquiao?s steady climb in weight, but we should also reward fighters who stay at a particular weight and clears out his division. I favor Hopkin?s 20 defenses more than Sugar Ray Leonard?s championships in “5” divisions. Once Hopkins was dethroned (which coincidentally is a debatable topic), he chose go up in weight and defeat bigger men.
Jones also jumped in weight for “challenges” and won a heavyweight title. One, the title wasn?t linear. Two, John Ruiz was the least coordinated heavyweight of his time. The reason why he was the Quietman was he couldn?t walk and talk at the same time. Jones bypassed the Cruiserweight because there were legitimate threats at the time Vasily Jirov and Jean Marc Mormeck (I admit I had to look that up.)
In short, Hopkins fulfilled every ounce of potential he had and Jones teased us with his.
Thank you and keep up the great work!
Sincerely, Dennis L.”
Whoa, Dennis, that is high praise. Farhood is the pro?s pro and Ryan, well, I read a bunch of his stuff in KO back in the day growing up in Montebello at the 7-11 newsstand while having a cherry Slurpee or Super Big Gulp. Hey, Korean parents didn?t take too kindly to having their money spent on boxing publications. Basically, that subscription they forked out for Sports Illustrated was a huge concession on their part. But in an irony that would have Alanis Morissette belting out her song, look what I?m doing now. Who would?ve thunk it, huh?
Some of your points echo mine but as it relates to Hopkins, yeah, that guy, even long before he consolidated the middleweight titles in 2001, I felt (for at least a few years) that he was the best 160-pounder on the planet. However, when he moved up in weight, he didn?t just go up to super middleweight but all the way up to light heavy and totally undressed the man who was considered to be the champion at that time, Antonio Tarver.
As for Jones defeating Ruiz, regardless, it?s still a formidable achievement any way you slice it. But here?s the thing; as you pointed out, he didn?t beat who was considered the best heavyweight in the world. And the very same people who hyperventilate over the influx of sanctioning bodies and multiple titles acted as if he beat Muhammad Ali or Larry Holmes in their heydays. Again, I guess those small details are only important in select cases.
Great article by the way… anyway, I think you have to look at the landscape of their careers, and if you do, I think the totality of Hopkins? career is more impressive (Unless he goes on a world RJJ/Holyfield journey the rest of his career).
Obviously Jones burned brighter but Hopkins burned longer. Jones? career has been over since the Ruiz fight, which was about a decade ago. So he?s been shot for a long time. The only guys he beat since then was a completely washed up smaller Trinidad and an even more shot Jeff Lacy (who had been shot since Calzaghe)!
On a slightly different note, Mayweather may turn into an RJ. We all know about his spending habits/problems. He has given up several years of his prime with retirements/vacations/possibly prison and he will be broke and unable to make the big payday like so many fighters.
On another irony, who would have thought that Mike Tyson would be alive and a free man, financially stable, while Holyfield is a woman beater, broke and fighting on to escape foreclosure as a completely shot shell of himself? This is another Irony like Jones/Hopkins.”
JB
Remember, JB, part of the question I asked is, ?Do you rate these two based on their peak values or for the entirety of their careers?? because even those who believe that Hopkins, top-to-bottom, had a better r?sum?, many of them, I think if they were pressed, would say that Jones would beat Hopkins if both were at their optimum powers. This debate is like Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith. Yeah, it?s Smith who is the all-time leading rusher in NFL history, who played much longer, but most pundits believe that it was Sanders who was the superior running back.
It also points out to how prematurely fighters are judged a lot of times. I remember when Jones beat Ruiz; folks were actually debating if it was he or Ray Robinson that was the greatest to have ever done this. (which I thought was blasphemy). Sorry, I never drank the Jonestown Kool-Aid. And just think about it; when Mike Tyson destroyed Michael Spinks in 1988, I distinctly recall the talk of ?Iron Mike? being up there with the likes of Ali and Louis. This goes both ways; I?m sure the historical standing of Roberto Duran took a huge hit after the infamous ?No Mas? debacle and his loss to Kirkland Laing. Well, over time, he was able to rebuild his legacy and career. I think this crowning of Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather, in respect to all-time lists, is premature because there?s still a lot of history to be written down the line.
You have to let these careers play out in full before really putting them into any real historical context.
I think it?s pretty clear; while one guy is history, the other guy still has a chance to make more. And you know which is which.
WEEKEND FLURRIES
Showtime made the official announcement that the bout between Abner Mares and Joseph Agbeko has been rescheduled for August 13th. No site has been determined…Also, Showtime will air a special bonus edition of ?Fight Camp 360? before next week?s bout between Carl Froch and Glen Johnson that will focus on Pacquiao-Mosley. It?s a 15-minute show that begins at 8:45 PM ET/PT. It would?ve been a half-hour but then, you saw that ?fight?…Next Tuesday, tickets go on sale for the July 9th battle between Brandon Rios and Urbano Antillon at the Home Depot Center in Carson, Ca. Tix are priced at $125, $75, $50 and $25. They can be purchased as the HDC box-office or at all Ticketmaster outlets…This week?s edition of ?Top Rank Live? on Fox Deportes features Omar Chavez against Genaro Trazancos (I can?t believe he?s still allowed to box)…Say it ain?t so! Leonard Ellerbe no longer with Team Mayweather?! I don?t believe it. Besides, who else is going to pick up his dry cleaning and whisper sweet nothings in his ear as he walks into the ring?…My prediction: I like the Heat over the Mavs in six with LeBron James winning MVP honors. Folks, it may pain some of you to say it but ?Bron is the best player in the NBA and will be for a looooong time…I can be reached at [email protected] and I tweet at www.twitter.com/stevemaxboxing. We also have a Facebook fan page at www.facebook.com/MaxBoxing.
