Nothing elicits a response from readers like a pound-for-pound list. Everyone has an opinion on where the fighters they admire or loath should rank, and nobody is shy about letting me know where I messed up or omitted a fighter from my most recent top 25. Read on and enjoy what folks had to say, but don’t take it too seriously. It’s all just an opinion.
GOOD LIST, BUT MINE IS BETTER
I like your pound for pound list but I think this should be the right order.
1)Pacquiao (He beat Morales, Barrera and almost Marquez, with less skill then Wright) 2)Wright (Beat Mosley and Trinidad but they where smaller guys, Pacquiao beat bigger guys) 3)Barrera 4)Castillo (Way better production in last 3 years then Mayweather, with less skill, amazing, plus he is one and one with Mayweather in most people’s eyes) 5)Hatton (He beat Tzyu when Tzyu was number 3 on this list plus he’s undefeated, good run) 6)Corrales (Awesome 4 year fight schedule, tremendous results, one and one with Castillo, much harder schedule then Mayweather, higher risk, higher pound for pound reward) 7)Calzaghe (Unbeaten, good streak, solidifies himself against Lacy, that one fight was better then all that Mayweather has done in last 3 years!) 8)Mayweather (this is his spot, if that, if he beats Zab, he should not be bumbed any lower then this spot.) 9)Taylor(has chance to break into top 5 against Wright) 10)Hopkins
Do you see my logic? – J.
You’re logic is as good as mine or anyone else’s, J.
I can see wanting to switch the order I have Wright and Pacquiao, but to my eyes Winky has been a more consistent fighter. No matter who he fights – be they solid contender or elite champ – he pretty much controls the poor souls en route to lop-sided 12-round decisions. Pacquiao has had some awesome wins and performances over the past three years, but he did lose to Morales in their first fight, and if you take away the first round of his draw with JM Marquez, you have to admit the PacMonster got out-boxed for the majority of the fight.
I have a hard time putting Castillo or Hatton ahead of Corrales. Yes, Castillo has the more decisive victory in their two fights, but it was tainted with the weigh-in scandal, plus Corrales has fought only elite fighters since October of ’03. Castillo has also had a great recent run, but he’s also given himself a few slight breaks by fighting good-but-non-elite guys like Julio Diaz and Rolando Reyes. Hatton beat a truly elite champ in Tszyu, but that’s his only win of note in his 40 pro wins (although I also give him credit for being one of the most consistent fighters in the game today). You and everyone else knows that I’m probably Mayweather’s biggest critic, but I give him credit for climbing two weight classes in the last two years and for his victories over DeMarcus Corley and Arturo Gatti, both of whom were ranked by The Ring at 140 pounds. I give him absolutely zero credit for beating up on Henry Bruseles and Sharmba Mitchell; and I won’t give him much for slapping around his homie Zab (if he’s able to do that). Mayweather’s dominance (aside from the first Castillo fight) and past accomplishments keep him inside my top five, but just inside. I think Antonio Tarver is fading fast, but his victories over Roy Jones (twice) and Glen Johnson in ’04 and last year merit a top 10 ranking, though only barely
PUZZLED BY YOUR POUND-FOR-POUND 25
D. Fischer, I’m a bit puzzled by your updated p4p rankings. You mention that you base your ratings on achievement (which is the way it should be), however you place Calzaghe fairly high and ahead of at least three people who should definitely (Tarver, Hopkins and Taylor) be ahead of him. Calzaghe didn’t even beat a guy in the top 20 p4p, let alone the second best SMW. Additionally how is it that a fighter like Zahir Raheem (who dominates Morales, a top 10 p4p fighter at the time), yet he isn’t even in your top 20 p4p, but you give credit to Pacman for beating Morales after he had just lost to Raheem??? Plus SSM beat Vargas who definitely had something left, but he isn’t in your top 20 p4p either? That makes no sense at all. SO one fighter dominates a p4p fighter, but he isn’t in your top 20 p4p, yet the guy he dominated is?
1. Tarver beat the #1 p4p guy in RJJ, not once (destroyed him in the second fight) but twice and beat the top LHV other than himself in Glen Johnson (who was a top 15 p4p guy). Like you mention, the two fights he lost were very close and could of gone the other way. Tarver beat the #1 p4p guy in the world, then beat the second best LHV (and a top 15 p4p) in the world, yet Calzaghe is ranked ahead of him p4p for never beating a top 20 p4p guy in his career???
2. Taylor was competitive with the consensus p4p fighter in the world (Hopkins) and received two “gift” decisions. Hopkins, of course at 40, thoroughly outclassed Taylor and basically got shafted by the judges in both fights. Nonetheless, both of these fighters are much better than Lacy and were ranked higher at the time as well.
I understand how easy it seems to place Calzaghe above these guys due to his dominant victory, but the point must be made on who exactly has Lacy beat? Similar to Sam Peter, he was being hyped due to his KO power and dynamic knockouts against past-it fighters.
In regards to your talented top 12, I’m surprised you left out Cotto who has one of the best recent resume’s of any active fighter. He has beaten a lot of solid fighters and assuming he gets past Malignaggi, he will hopefully have a defining fight with a big name, so he is definitely one to look out for.
As for some fun predictions, I picture Taylor handling Wright much easier than expected and Hopkins pulling out a convincing UD against Tarver. – Zak
We’ll see what happens in June, Zak.
You make some excellent points about my list, and though it’s obviously not an exact science, I’ll try to explain why I put Calzaghe, Hopkins, Taylor, Morales, Mosley and Raheem where I placed them (or in the case of Sugar Shane, why I didn’t place him). But first I’ll reprint the criteria for my rankings that I put in the introduction to my column:
“I look at a fighter’s quality of opposition, recent activity, longevity, and consistency at a high level more than undefeated records and technical brilliance in the ring”.
Quality of opposition is the biggie for me, but it’s not the only thing I look at when assessing a fighter’s pound-for-pound ranking.
Calzaghe lacks a victory over an elite fighter, which Tarver certainly has, but the Welshman makes up for that deficiency with his longevity (he’s been a world title holder as long as Tarver has been a pro fighter – not to mention the fact that he’s made 18 defenses of his WBO title) and consistency (despite having some off-nights like all fighters do, he never got out-worked by lesser talented fighters the way Tarver has).
It’s not whether a fighter wins or loses, but HOW he wins or loses that’s important to me. Calzaghe didn’t just beat Jeff Lacy. He schooled, spanked and abused the physically gifted young title holder. And I don’t think it’s fair to Lacy or Cazlaghe to dismiss Jeff as the Samuel Peter of the 168-pound division. Fight fans jump off fighters’ bandwagons much faster than the often-fickle media after a loss. Lacy loses to a damn good fighter and all of the sudden he was just hype. I don’t buy that. Lacy won a world title (by stopping a dangerous and experienced contender) and defended it four times (including a few solid vets). Sam Peter has not done that at heavyweight, which is a less talented division than super middleweight; so please, let’s layoff Lacy (I think Calzaghe punished him enough). Back to my point about how a fighter wins or loses, Tarver beat both Glen Johnson and Roy Jones last year (after getting outworked by Johnson in late ’04), but he faded badly vs. the Road Warrior and he simply did not impress vs. an obviously faded ‘RJ’.
Although he won both of his fights last year, he didn’t look like an elite fighter in doing so. Still, I keep him inside the top 10 because Johnson was the light heavyweight champ and is still dangerous. I don’t give Tarver much credit for out-pointing Jones. Tarver looked very ordinary in out-lasting a former elite fighter who didn’t even look like he should be in the ring anymore.
The same criteria applied for Shane Mosley. If you recall, I kept Mosley inside my top 20 even after back-to-back losses to Winky Wright. Why? Because even though he was soundly out-boxed, he put forth game efforts against an elite fighter. I dropped Mosley off my list after his two WINS over David Estrada (a strong welterweight who’s probably national class, but not world class) and Jose Luis Cruz (a totally built-up fake contender whose only talent is having a hard head). Mosley showed he still had enough left to be considered a 147-pound contender, but not an elite fighter. And I’m sorry to say, his technical stoppage of Fernando Vargas didn’t sway that opinion. Much like Mosley, Vargas proved in his two points victories over Raymond Joval and Javier Castillejo that he was no longer an elite fighter – a good fighter, yes; a 154-pound contender, sure, but not pound-for-pound.
Regarding Taylor and Hopkins, although I think the Executioner won the first fight by eight rounds and barley lost the rematch (I had the young man winning by one point) I also believe he was exposed as no longer being a top-10 caliber fighter in those 24 rounds. B-Hops had showed signs of slowing down and getting old in his boring boxing exhibitions vs. Robert Allen (third fight), Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. It was plain as day that he simply couldn’t get off any more vs. Taylor. Sad thing about that situation is that Taylor really couldn’t take advantage of it (though he did just enough on the cards of five judges to win two seven rounds in both “fights”). The fact that Taylor wasn’t ready to seize his moment against even a 40-year-old champ tells me that he’s not ready to be a top 10-level pound-for-pound player, but I admit that he’s close. I still give him credit for winning rounds versus a tough-as-nails, crafty, and defense-minded old ring general like Hopkins. I need to see Taylor DECISIVELY beat a top fighter who is still relatively close to his physical prime. Hopkins was obviously past his prime and the two wins were not decisive (as even you admit). Taylor will get his chance versus Wright in June. I disagree with your prediction on that fight, but I’ve been on a bit of a losing streak with picking winners this year. You might be right about the young Arkansas native; and if you are, I will be more than happy to upgrade him from just outside of the top 10 to inside of the top 5.
Regarding Raheem, I felt bad about not including the often over-looked ’96 Olympian in my top 20, but the fact is the classy stylist simply hasn’t done enough outside of his big win over Morales to merit inclusion. If he had done more at 126 pounds (or perhaps caught a few breaks) and his victory over El Terrible took place at 130 pounds instead of 135, I think I would have put him in there. You seem to think that my having Pacquiao at no. 2 is based solely on his knockout of Morales (despite Terrible coming off the loss to Raheem). Come on, man, you know I don’t do that. Pacquiao had to work his way up my list, and it took years of blood, sweat and tears before he got to the no. 2 position where I currently have him.
Despite months of email persecution from ‘PacMen’ from around the globe, I did not replace Marco Antonio Barrera with Pacquiao when PacMan beat him down in late 2003 (MAB was my no. 2 guy at the time). That was one big win, and it could have been a case of catching a fighter in the right place at the right time. I put PacMan just inside the top 10 after the Barrera victory. He climbed a few notches after his ’04 draw with JM Marquez (who was brought inside the top 10 for the first time). He held his spot after his gallant loss to Morales in the first fight, and then advanced to no. 2 after becoming the first man to stop El Terrible this past February. That no. 2 spot is not only the culmination of what PacMan has done vs. Barrera, Marquez and Morales, but it’s also based on the fact that the 130-pound division is the fourth weight class in which he’s been a world-class force. Now I have a lot of respect for Raheem, but the Philly native does not have world titles in three weight classes like PacMan and he doesn’t have a history of big wins – yet. Let’s see what he does vs. Acelino Freitas, Zak. If he schools the powerful Brazilian, he’ll definitely break into my top 20. But what if he gets KTFO?
Regarding Cotto, the Puerto Rican star has one of the best resumes of any young up-and-comer, but not one of the best resumes of all active fighters. He’s a very good young title holder – and I’m sure he’ll break into the top 20 before the end of the year – but right now I’m not sure he’s any better than other current title holders who are not on my list like Roberto Vasquez (WBA 108 pounds) or Jesus Chavez (IBF 135 pounds) or Arthur Abraham (IBF 160 pounds) or Jhonny Gonzalez (WBO 18 pounds). Please tell me what Cotto has done that makes him any more deserving to be an elite fighter than the titlists I’ve listed.
WHAT ABOUT THE FATMAN?
Hey Dougie, Long time member, 1st time writing to the mailbag. First off, let me say that I love what you guys are doing for the sport. Maxboxing is my first stop every morning when I’m supposed to be working.
I agree with your top 25 (as always), but have only one question. Based on your reasons for the top 25 – “I look at a fighter’s quality of opposition, recent activity, longevity, and consistency at a high level more than undefeated records and technical brilliance in the ring.”
Shouldn’t James Toney occupy a spot? Yes he’s fat and loud, but is undeniably one of the best technicians ever to lace up the gloves. He’s fought everyone and has been a champ for the better part of 2 decades. If you disagree, does he crack the Top 25 if he beats Rahman? Thanks for your time, keep up the good work. – MW, San Diego
If I included heavyweights, I’d probably have Toney inside my top 20. I had the Fatman in my top 10 after his wins over Vassiliy Jirov and Evander Holyfield in ’03. But his inactivity due to injuries and his obvious choice to stay at heavyweight caused me to eventually drop him.
PBF & MARGARITO
Dougie, Just wanted to commend you for being one of the very few people with the brains and balls to have someone other than the “challenge averse” PBF at number one on their pound-for-pound list. Your list was another of maxboxing’s great reads. I do, however, believe that anyone who doesn’t rank Margarito in the top twenty is a crazy person. Love the site man, keep up the good work. – Drew Flatley
I think Margarito has done more than enough to be considered the top dog at 147 pounds. He blew out Manuel Gomez, who at one time was ranked as high as no. 5 by The Ring (as recently as their summer of ’05 edition). He took out Kermit Cintron, who was The Ring’s no. 5 contender at the time; and he chopped down Sebastian Lujan, the magazine’s no. 10 contender at the time, in 10 gruesome rounds. But I don’t think I’m crazy for thinking that Gomez, Cintron and Lujan are not even close to being elite fighters. Cintron held a BS “interim” WBO title, but he was no champ. He was a physically imposing prospect. Gomez was a grizzled veteran. Lujan was a strong fringe contender. Margarito is a solid title holder and a top contender. I’m sure once he gets the opportunity to prove he’s an elite fighter, he’ll make the best of it. But he has to do it first.
WRIGHT AT NO. 1 IS WRONG
Dougie, Just wanted to add to the thousands of emails you are probably receiving about your pound for pound list. I wanted to point out that using your own criteria, there is no way Winky should be #1. “mainly because of whom he beat in the last two years and how good he looked in doing so…” Winky beat Mosley twice, a guy who is a future HOF’er cause of his body of work at lightweight and because he beat DLH twice. I love Mosley, but he’s been a fringe contender, at best, at jr middleweight. Winky also beat Tito, who had recently come out of retirement and was obviously not the P4P Tito we all knew. DLH wrote the blueprint on how to beat DLH, Hopkins did it for a full 12 rounds and Winky did the same thing. Outside of that, what has he done? I mean, beating Bronco McKart three times is great and everything, but seriously, who has he beat that was truly a top 10 P4P guy at that point in their career? If he beats Jermain, I say make him #1, cause thats a fight I don’t think he can win (Jermain is too big), but otherwise I see no reason to make him the top guy. I know Winky was avoided for a long time, but so what. Pac-man should be #1. You basically say so yourself. And MAB should not be #3. How can he be above Floyd when he has fought even lesser opponents the past few years? I give him tons of credit for the trilogy with Morales, but outside of that, he has beat nobody since Hamed. I know you hate Floyd cause he doesn’t challenge himself as much as he should (to which I say blame HBO – same thing happened with RJJ), but you have to give Floyd credit for his whole career as well as his superior boxing skills. I mean seriously, would you have thought three years ago that Floyd would be fighting in the welterweight division and still be arguably the top guy? My top five would be as follows: Pacman – Floyd – Winky – Castillo/Corales. – Mike
Mike, I hate to break this to you, but the history of boxing did not begin in 2004. If you traveled back to October of 2003, you would see that Shane Mosley was the universally recognized 154-pound champ and that Trinidad was inside everyone’s pound-for-pound top 15. Now that it’s early 2006, you refer to Mosley as “a fringe contender” at junior middleweight and Trinidad as “not the P4P guy we all knew”. I tell you what, Mike, do a Yahoo or a Google search with the words “pound for pound”, “2004” and the names of whatever boxing writer you respect (obviously, you think my logic is flawed as far as ranking fighters goes – so type in “Steve Kim”, “Dan Rafael”, “Michael Katz”, “Greg Leon” and whoever else you know of who comes out with a semi-regular pound-for-pound list). Email me back and tell me if you don’t see Trinidad’s name inside of everyone’s top 15. Do it. I already know where everyone ranked Tito. Let’s see if you can handle the truth.
So let’s get back to reality, Wright has beaten elite fighters: Mosley and Trinidad. You and other fans would like to do a bit of revisionist history and say that he’s this big bully who just picked on faded, blown-up welterweights, but the truth is that both Sugar and Tito were ranked higher in both the divisional rankings (at 154 and 160 pounds) and pound for pound when Wright fought them. In fact, Wright was the betting underdog vs. both fighters.
Here’s another piece of revisionist history: “DLH wrote the blueprint on how to beat [Trinidad], Hopkins did it for a full 12 rounds and Winky did the same thing.”
That is SO untrue, Mike. De La Hoya and Hopkins employed a stick-and-move strategy to neutralize Tito’s power. Wright stood his ground for 12 rounds and even had Trinidad backing up for the final rounds. Nobody had ever done that vs. the formidable three-division champ.
And then you had to drop this little gem on me: “And MAB should not be #3. How can he be above Floyd when he has fought even lesser opponents the past few years?”
Are you telling me that you consider Erik Morales and Manny Pacquiao to be “lesser” opponents than Victoriano Sosa, Phillip Ndou, Chop Chop Corley, Henry Bruseles, Arturo Gatti and Sharmba Mitchell?
FLOYD’S NOT NO. 1, BUT HE’S BETTER THAN NO. 4
Hello Dougie,
first, much thanks for not putting PBF as P4P King……like you i have Winky #1, because of his big wins vs. Sugar n Tito……
“You all know my criteria for these rankings by now. I look at a fighter’s quality of opposition, recent activity, longevity, and consistency at a high level more than undefeated records and technical brilliance in the ring.”
Even through I respect you criteria, you should combine a bit more between quality of opposition, recent activity – undefeated rec. n technical brilliance. In your way of thinking Floyd would have been #1 if he had faced Hatton and beat him, but like I heard Floyd wanted to fight Hatton n Hatton’s Team (father) backed up by saying there fighter wasn’t ready to face Floyd. So, just because of somebody doesn’t want to face you, you suddenly can’t be in the top 3? It’s obvious that Floyd is the most talented Boxer in the world, he recently beat Mitchell, Gatti and did same with now living legends Castillo & Corrales….he deserves better than 4….he must be 3!!! depends on how convincly he beats Judah and than is willing to face the winner of a possible Margarito – Baldomir (oh did i mention you forgot him on your list) or a Mega Showdown vs Sugar Shane would make sence to me, he sooner or later become P4P’s Best….
Would should Floyd Mayweather fight after his win over Judah? Keep up the great work. – Derrick O.
Well, I would hope Mayweather would fight Ricky Hatton (who hopefully will be ready to get it on with PBF by the fall) or Tony Margarito (who definitely IS ready to fight him) in July. A win over either man would make him my no. 1 P4P player. But he’s got to do it first.
MANNY, MARCO & MORALES ALL P4P
Hi Doug, Excellent P4P list. I agree with PACman landing on 2nd just right above MAB. A lot of writers have it the other way around for very good reasons but until MAB reverses his loss to PACman in equal fashion AND manhandles common opponent Morales the same way PACman did, he will have to remain a step lower in ranking. I am not sure about Morales being left out though. I’ve reviewed his 2nd fight with Manny many times and for much of it, he was still the same fearsome puncher/boxer; definitely much better than when he fought MAB the third time. It was just a case of Manny’s punches being too strong and too many; No. Erik was on his A-game that night. It’s just that Manny is too much for anyone at this moment. Thanks. – Al
The guess here is that Morales’ battle-worn body has finally hit the proverbial wall. Although I don’t overly penalize a fighter for losing to a fellow badass, losses do count for something. You can’t go 3-3 in your last six fights and not drop down a few notches on my list.
NO SUGAR SHANE?
Soild list Doug, for once, I can’t really argue with your rankings – it’s pretty sound. One question: If PBF bests Zab w/in 6 rounds will that give him any chance to move up on your list. Minor notice: I can see not having Shane Mosely in your top 20, but I found it pretty surprising to see him excluded from your “Furious Five.” I can make a strong argument as to why his credentials (i.e. quality of opposition: Wright (2x), Forrest (2x), De La Hoya (2x), and Vargas) and longevity make him a better choice than all five on your list. – Jalil
I’m sure you can make a very compelling argument, Jalil, but it’s my opinion that the fighters I have in the Furious Five – Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, Israel Vazquez, Antonio Margarito, Mikkel Kessler, and Zahir Raheem – are either at or near the top of their respective divisions. I think Mosley has proven to be a mid-top 10 welterweight (The Ring ranked him at no. 4 before the Vargas bout) and junior middleweight (Vargas was no. 4 at 154 pounds) with his performances in his last three fights.
I think Mayweather would have to land a no-look lead right hand and score a one-punch knockout of Judah for me to move him up even one notch on my P4P list.
DROP HATTON
Dougie, I love you, and for the most part I agree with your top 25, but I have to disagree with Ricky Hatton making the list. Maybe it is just me, but I don’t see him beating anyone who is not 2 or 3 years past their prime. I have seen him fight a couple of times now, and he seems to not be the superior boxer in any of his fights, but more the bully, roughing up his opponent more than out boxing them. When he fights some one who is a better boxer than him, I think he is going to get torn to bits, maybe not knocked out, but beat to a bloody pulp. I just don’t think putting him on a top 25 list is warranted until he can beat another top fighter in his weight class with punches rather than by mawling him. The rest of the list looks pretty good though. Talk to you later. – John
Hatton is not a pretty boxer but neither was Julio Cesar Chavez or Joe Frazier, but those two grinding pressure fighters will go down as all-time greats. John Ruiz has one of the ugliest styles I’ve ever witnessed, but at the end of the day, you had to consider him a top five or 10 heavyweight because he was able to weardown or at least frustrate the likes of Evander Holyfield, Kirk Johnson, Hasim Rahman, Fres Oquendo and Andrew Golota.
Like Lamon Brewster was recently quoted: “Boxing is not a beauty contest” and the Brewmeister has proven that in beating better talented and skilled boxers like Wladimir Klitschko, Andrew Golota and Lujan Krasniqi.
There’s a place for all styles on the pound-for-pound list: boxers, punchers, pressure fighters, and even maulers. I like Hatton because is the definition of the word “consistency” for a fighter. He has brought the exact same fight to all 40 of his pro bouts with the same outcome – a victory. And no matter what the level of his opponent – cagey vet (Vince Phillips), fringe contender (Ben Tackie), title holder (Carlos Maussa) or elite champ (Kostya Tszyu) – Hatton does the same thing to each fighter; he pounds them non-stop every round until they either can take it or they lose a lopsided decision.
TIES DON’T BELONG IN THE P4P
Doug, whats up… Well, i was reading your p4p list, and found interesting how you put Castillo and Corrales tied and Taylor and Hopkins. That’s probably the only thing in which i disagree in your list. There should be no ties.
Castillo and Corrales have been practically even in the last few years, but still some one has to be on top, and that must be Castillo. Even though he allegadly cheated, he still fought a guy that accepted this challenge so, if the fight took place and he won, we cant argue with the result. As for Taylor and Hopkins, i would put Hopkins on top because i thought he won both fights, so i think you should make up your mind with that. But hey, its your list, your entitled to put it as you want. I just wanted to make those observations.
As for the order, i know most people love to see a gifted athlete like Mayweather on the top, but i guess no one remembers that he is not invinsible, he hasnt fought top quality opposition in the last 2 to 3 years, and lastly, he’s lucky he still has that 0 in the loss column, Castillo beat him in my book, and still, all the fanboys tend to forget about that. See you around .. – Juan Valverde, Tijuana
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with ties, Juan. Judges score even rounds occasionally and we have decisions that end in draws, so why not?
Corrales and Castillo have some questions that need to be answered and until they engage in their rubbermatch the jury is still out on whether Chico can beat the Mexican without buying precious seconds by spitting out his mouthpiece, and the jury is still out on whether Castillo can beat Corrales after actually weighing in at 135 pounds. Until either guy proves he can beat the other without controversy, these warriors are tied in my mind.
As for Taylor and Hopkins, all their 24 rounds proved is that the young man doesn’t know how to deal with a smart and experienced boxer and the old man probably shouldn’t be fighting any more because he can’t do more offensively than throw a dozen jabs and launch a couple right hands in each round. Despite the controversial decisions for Taylor, neither man proved to be better than the other, so they deserve to be side by side.
One thing bugged me about your criticism; this little gem: “Even though he allegadly cheated, he still fought a guy that accepted this challenge so, if the fight took place and he won, we cant argue with the result.”
I guess as far as you’re concerned Rosie Ruiz won the 1980 Boston Marathon for women.
THE NO. 1, POUND FOR POUND, P4P LIST
Love your ranking of top 20 P4P’ers.. I think they are fare and give an excellent account of the fighters. Wow – nice! – Big M
You know I had to fit this email somewhere in this mail bag. Glad you appreciate the effort, Big M.
FLAWED CRITERIA
Dougie, What’s up? I have to disagree with you about your p4p criteria. I think your treating the rankings like it’s college sports. The bottom line is if alien life landed on planet earth didn’t know anything about boxing and asked you as an expert to show them the best boxer Dougie don’t tell me you’d put in a tape of Winky Wright. p4p means if everyone weighed the same who would be the best and Dougie you can’t honestly say that 160 pound Mayweather wouldn’t beat Winky Wright. If Winky Wright is the best fighter in the world than that’s a sad state of affairs.
On Tarver-Hopkins forget the fact that’s it’s two over the hill fighters cautious in the ring by nature, does that fight make any sense business wise?
Do you agree with me that Naseem Hamed is completely full of shit about coming back he looks to be about 160 pounds?
License or no license it’s time they put your son Edwin Valero on American television? Could Golden Boy promote international fights? 18 consecutive 1st round KOs is certainly nothing to sneeze at and again if Winky Wright is the best fighter in the world we’re in desperate need of new talent. Regards – Gallagher
I tell you what Gallagher, if alien life ever does land on planet earth I’ll seriously consider changing my pound-for-pound criteria. That silly old “if every fighter weighed the same who would beat who?” criteria is far too subjective for my taste. How do you know that a 160-pound Floyd Mayweather would beat Winky Wright? If Jose Luis Castillo was able to walk PBF down with his jab, why wouldn’t Wright – who’s got a much better jab, in my opinion – do the same? How do you know that Wright’s southpaw stance and ability to block most jabs and power shots and come back with his own accurate counter lefts and jarring jabs wouldn’t give Mayweather fits? The answer is that you don’t know, and I don’t know either. You and I can pontificate who would win in a mythical, pound for pound, matchup between Winky and Floyd and both make good points, but we’ll never know who’s right because that fight ain’t gonna happen (I don’t care what crap PBF spouts about wanting to do it for real).
My point is that we don’t know what’s going to happen until fighters actually step into the ring. On paper it looked like Jean-Marc Mormeck had way too much skill, technique and strength for O’Neil Bell, who had looked vulnerable in his previous fights before their January unification bout. If you would have polled 100 boxing writers and fans who was going to win between Zab Judah and Carlos Baldomir, I guarantee you that 99 would have said Judah, hands down. But what happened in both of those fights? Hey, most of us thought that Calzaghe-Lacy was going to be an even fight, a competitive war. Look what happened. We just DON’T know until they step in the ring and start trading leather, Gallagher.
I don’t think Tarver-Hopkins makes much sense business-wise, but I thought the same thing about Mayweather-Judah, which is doing very good ticket sales. It turns out black folks are still interested in boxing. Who knew?
I’ll believe Hamed is back when I see him getting punched in the face – in the ring, that is.
I agree 100% that Valero should be on TV. However, I don’t have much pull with the network boys (my pound-for-pound lists probably kill all of my credibility along with my tacky ass ponytail). Still, you’d think some network, at least one of the Spanish-language channels, would be interested in such a talent and story. Oh well. Something tells me you’ll be watching “my son” fight on Max-TV before you see him on HBO or Showtime. Hey, it beats not seeing him at all.
WHY THE DISSY ON THE IZZY?
Dougmeister, Great list! I like where you place PBF, #4 where he belongs. But where’s Israel Vasquez? Why no love? I think he deserves a spot in the top 20. Peace. – Rafael
I put Vasquez in my Furious Five (although I messed up his first name and called him “Ivan”). I realize that he’s a unified champ at 122 pounds but I think he caught Oscar Larios at the right time and he looked rather ordinary in his title defense before the unification bout. A win over WBA king Mahyar Monshipour or WBO titlist Daniel Ponce-DeLeon will put him up in the top 15 range.
‘THE TRUTH’ (IT AIN’T PBF)
Doug, Being a longtime reader all I have to say is WOW! You got balls man! You are going to cop it left right and centre from all the PBF nuthuggers!
I for one think u have called it right. If PBF does not take on the top level of competition in his division/s then he should not be in the top 3. Earlier in his career he seemed to be willing but now its all about the money. That’s inconsistency…that’s ripping off the fans, the sport and most importantly himself. You measure a man by his accomplishments and at the moment, he is not doing that, which is a damn shame because there’s quality opposition from Hatton, Cotto and Margarito there. But anyway, he does what he does and that’s why he is not in the top 3.
Love the Manny Pac choice at 2. Well done again!
Maybe the only one I would change is putting Hatton and Calzahe up a notch instead of Chico but I suppose u will argue that Chico has proved himself in the past few years with the quality of opposition he faced so ill let u get away with that J
Anyway great job once again and your P4P rankings continue to be the truth in all the Net. Cheers – Perry from Downunder
Thanks Perry. I put Corrales ahead of Hatton and Calzaghe because he has victories over three elite (or former elite – meaning top 20 P4P) fighters in recent years: Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas and Jose Luis Castillo. Hatton beat a guy who was ranked higher than all three of Chico’s victims, but it’s still one guy, and who knows? Maybe he caught the 35-year-old Tszyu on the right night. Calzaghe still has yet to beat a top 20 pound-for-pound player, although Lacy had begun to break onto some lists (not mine) before he traveled to Manchester.
PBF IS STILL UNBEATEN AND STILL NO. 1
I still think PBF should be number one because he has beaten each and every opponent that he faced. Doesn’t matter who he has beaten. Its not his fault if those fight didn’t happen in the past. There are negotiators for the fight and a lot of reason for them not to happen, there’s money, venue, conditions, timing, etc. The bottom line is, he was able to digest everything that was put on his plate. And no other fighter in your pound for pound list has been able to do that. – Joel
What are you talking about? I post the records of all the fighters in my top 20 – you have eyes, Joel, use them. Ricky Hatton is 40-0. Joe Calzaghe is 41-0. These guys have also “digested” everything that was put on their plate. So by your criteria – if it’s all about beating “each and every opponent faced” and it “doesn’t matter who they have beaten” – why aren’t they no. 1? They have more wins that PBF.
Maybe you rate Mayweather ahead of Hatton and Calzaghe for the same reason I do – he’s beaten more elite fighters during his career. ‘Nuff said.
CASAMAYOR OVER COTTO?
Doug, you’re the man. I enjoyed your Pound-for-Pound list but have a couple of questions. Where was Cotto? Certainly he should be in your top 20, or at least replace Zahir Raheem or some other of those fighers on your Furious Five after his disposing of the tough Abdullaev and Branco. You must be on Dr(oug)s! Just kidding! And Doug, I’m sorry, but I can’t look at Winky as your number one. I tried, but quickly scrolled down so I wouldn’t have to see it again. We’ve argued about it in the past, but I just don’t think his defeating an old Shane Mosley and even older Trinidad should put him as number one. I agree with him in the top five, but if he beats Taylor (which he absolutely will not), I’ll put him in the top three. Watch Taylor’s superior jab, strength, movement, and athleticism triumph over him in June.
And one minor issue — Casamayor I’d put at the last place on your list. Those decisions he lost I gave to the other fighters anyway. Also, you can’t count his “win” over Corrales, who was cut badly in the mouth but was kicking his ass prior to the stoppage, then beat him in a decision. To me, if you consistently lose to top fighters, you go on the second tier, where Casamayor, despite his skills, belongs. I have to admit, though — you have very solid arguments for a very solid list. You and this website kick ass. Peace – Frankie G. Poughkeepsie, NY
You know, Winky is no Spring Chicken himself, Frankie. It’s not fair to call Mosley and Tito “old and older” just because he spanked their asses in the ring. Maybe he had a hand in making them look “old”. By the way, if you think Taylor’s jab is superior to Winky’s southpaw stick you better prepare yourself to be disappointed on June 17th.
Regarding Cotto, you know I love the kid and think he will be an elite fighter soon enough, but I couldn’t put him ahead of Raheem, who has a win over a truly elite fighter, or Casamayor, who contrary to what you remember, put Chico’s ass on the canvass twice in that first fight and had a hand in busting up the Explosive Thinman’s face along with the faulty mouthpiece. The thing about Cotto is, although he wins, he also struggles, and we’re not talking about against the likes of Corrales and Castillo here, we’re talking about Chop Chop Corley and Ricardo Torres. See the difference? I knew you would.
NO ANTONIO ‘MAX’-ARITO ON YOUR LIST?
Good list Doug, but I noticed the absence of Antonio Margarito, which surprised me considering the accolades he gets on Maxboxing. – Pat
Hey, it’s Steve Kim who’s Margarito’s unofficial publicist, not me. I’m sure Margarito is in K9’s Baker’s Dozen.
37 FIGHTERS AND NO “DREAM”
Hey Dougie~
You listed the top 37 fighters in the game, but I feel you left out a guy who should be in your top 25…..Kassim Ouma! What’s the deal? – Ian
Yeah, but I included the guy who beat Ouma, Roman Karmzin, (barely). By the way the Talented 12 are not elite fighters, IMO, but they could be if given the right opportunities.
THE THAI GUY, THE ‘V-NOM’ & SUGAR SHANE
Hey Dougie, I always like reading your P4P list. I was wondering since ‘The Ring’ has Pongsaklek Wonjongkam in their top ten and as far as I know no one has seen him. I would like to see him. Anyway having said that, if or I should say when Edwin Valero beats Mosque for the title would you include him in your top 20 or 25 even though he has not fought name fighters? I know you think his technique has gone downhill but if he keeps winning and knocking people out? I also thought Mosely gave Wright a good fight in their rematch to a much bigger man. Do you think Mosely has one more good fight in him. I was never a fan of his but… Sincerely – Adam CA.
Wonjongkam is an elite fighter because of his consistency and longevity; his style and talent aren’t that special. He’s a strong, aggressive southpaw pressure fighter who is usually in a tremendous physical condition. His numbers are definitely top-10 pound-for-pound stuff, but I’m not sure the quality of his opposition is.
It’s not a given that Valero beats WBA 130-pound champ Vicente Mosquera. The Panamanian title holder is a badass. However, Mosquera’s an aggressive guy who does get hit, which isn’t the best style to have vs. Valero. If “my son” takes out Mosquera, I’ll consider him to be among the top 130-pound fighters in the world, probably behind Manny Pacquiao and Marco Antonio Barrera, but not an elite fighter. To break into my top 20, Valero would have to beat a vet like Carlos Hernandez or Kevin Kelley and take the WBO crown of Jorge Barrios. To get into the top 10, he’d have to KO Erik Morales (which I still think he would) or beat MAB or the PacMonster. Yeah, I know, I’m a hard-to-please “father”, but I believe in tough love.
If Mosley fights someone from his era (the ‘90s) in his next fight (Vargas again or his boss De La Hoya or Ike Quartey), I think he’ll look good. If he fights a young gun from this era, Floyd Mayweather, Antonio Margarito or Kassim Ouma, I don’t think he’ll look so hot.
NO BERNARD?
u have to have bernard in the top 20- if u have jermain- he lost the 2nd fight but the 1st FIGHT could of went either way favorably 4 b hop in most true boxing fans eyes- and i agree with pbf ranking on ur p4p list (probaly gonna get some flack over it though) who has he fought? doing the same thing rjjr. did – handpicking- has da talent but has been spoiled lately because of the money he makes- seems like if he loses hes thinking he wont have the upperhand in negotiating which could cost him millions- not a throwback fighter like his uncle rog says- throwbacks= best vs. best not best vs, who i can make da most money off with little risk but is a known fighter but who is not an elite fighter alot of “buts” when it comes to floyds oppostion of late and p s since when can a number 2 pound 4 pound fighter(number one on ur list) bid out hisself against a number 1 pound 4 pound fighter (number 4 on ur list)- my point exactly – one of the biggest boxing fans ever – S-ski
Nard’s on the list. I have the future hall of famer tied for 12th with the guy who supposedly beat him twice, Jermain Taylor.
